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Replies: 5 comments 23 replies
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Which is a good thing. Wayland has its annoying limitations. |
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Well for example absolute window positioning programmatically (and other stuff). If I remember correctly it's up to the implementer to allow this or provide an API for it. I'm not sure how "low level" Avalonia goes, hence the scepticism about wayland. If Avalonia goes wayland but still has a way to position / have full control over a window, fine by me! |
This always comes up but it's far more complicated than it sounds due to Wayland trying to support everything. EG a simple desktop might only have X and Y coordinates. But a VR display might have X, Y and Z and no practical "display bounds". Similarly, on non rectangular displays you need a completely different coordinate system than you do on a rectangular one (and any program that assumes a square display also wont work properly). A less niche case is things like tiling window managers which will never properly support placing things in exact positions. The current approach which is still being discussed is to instead allow for placing windows into "zones". Which are somewhat vaguely defined and is up to the compositor to decide what each zone is. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/264 Wayland itself however does not prohibit something adding absolute positioning support, it's just up to the compositor to implement it. EG The IVI shell does add support for some more advanced window layouts. https://wayland.pages.freedesktop.org/weston/toc/ivi-shell.html There are also things like Kiosk compositors which make zero sense to have any concept of a window. EG https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage?tab=readme-ov-file The problem most people have with Wayland is that they are thinking backwards and like X11. |
Okay but how does Avalonia fit in here? Is Avalonia a "compositor"? |
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No. Avalonia is not a compositor (although I guess it would be possible to implement one using Avalonia? Not sure why you would though). Compositor is just the Wayland term for a server that implements Wayland (and generally handles window management). Avalonia would be a Wayland client. The server can expose what ever extensions it wants clients to use. Obviously, if it's not part of the core protocol it's not particularly portable though. But there are already a lot of desktop and non desktop specific Wayland extensions programs are already making extensive use of. EG KDE has server side decorations. |
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Seems like a fun thing to maintain 😅 Seems like it's all very "if this && if that && if so, we're good!" But it might be due to my lack of knowledge about this stuff, so please forgive me if i'm a bit short sighted about this. Thanks for the information though 👌 |
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There was a port in progress. But it's not clear when/if it will release. It has been in development for awhile and the PR for it was closed. |
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Unfortunately I am not a Wayland expert (in fact I have never made a program to use it directly). I just tend to pay attention to these sorts of things. XWayland is supposed to work more or less the same as regular X11 does from an application perspective (after all, it's a compatibility layer to make X programs work on Wayland). That said, from memory SDL has many different backends. Perhaps you specifically need to specifically enable the X11 one? I seem to recall that SDL3 switched to using Wayland by default (after trying several times to do the same for SDL2 but failing). I have not touched SDL3 before so I am not sure how to do that, but in SDL2 you can either do it via an environment variable or code. https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL2/FAQUsingSDL |
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Thanks |
@thevortexcloud Hi, Is wayland's performance generally better because it has one less service layer compared to x11? Recently, I've been using an immutable OS, so I installed Edge inside a container. I noticed that when I force it to use the X11 backend, I can feel a slight latency on certain web pages. However, the situation improves under Wayland. Although I eventually switched to using the Flatpak version to solve it, I am still very curious about the technical reason behind this. Thank you! |
I am not sure I understand the premise of the question? Wayland is faster because it's designed for modern computers and hardware. X11 on the other hand was originally designed to be used on networked terminals connected to a central mainframe in the 1980's (fun fact, you can still run X11 over a network and it mostly works! Try using SSH via Wayland was created from scratch to fix all of the problems X11 had. It's designed to work with modern rendering paradigms, support everything from VR headsets to smart watches, and be extremely minimal.
As for your specific issue. Not sure. It could be anything from a display driver issue, to something weird like VSync. There is also issues with things like using different refresh rates on multi monitor setups, etc. Anyway: Wayland is the future. If it works for you, you should use it. KDE is about to drop support for native X11 entirely in the next major release. |
You are right, the problem can be complex and multi-faceted. Since this solution works for me, I'll stick with it for now. Thank you so much for providing all this information! |
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Wayland is now (for quite some while) the dominating protocol for desktop Linux. The GNOME edition of Fedora has defaulted to Wayland since version 25 in 2016, and the KDE edition since version 34 in 2021, and X11 is effectively not developed anymore for years by now. https://www.phoronix.com/news/Fedora-43-Wayland-Only-GNOME Fedora is about to drop X11 with the next release completely. Other distros will follow. |
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XWayland will be supported for many years to come. Distros are just killing native X11 support. Even then, they are getting a lot of push back. EG there was an uproar awhile back when Fedora tried to drop the KDE X11 session, but then someone volunteered to maintain it. Which is why it's still available. https://www.phoronix.com/news/Fedora-Approved-January-F40 Really, there is no rush here right now. |
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Considering it takes some time to port it, and that X11 is simply insecure, I think that's quite reckless. |
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I don't disagree about it being insecure, but it's no less secure than X has been for decades at this point. Wayland has also really only started to become actually useful in the last ~2-3 years. I don't think there will be any meaningful movement to fully kill X for at least another decade or so. |
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There are several distros without x or xwayland, also gnome will drop support for xwayland in next versions |
This is the first I am hearing about this and I don't see it mentioned anywhere else. What I am seeing is them removing all remaining dependencies on X (not XWayland), and Ubuntu dropping support for the X11 session. But nothing about XWayland going anywhere. In fact I am seeing several articles that explicitly mention X support will continue via XWayland. Removing XWayland support entirely is an easy way to make a lot of people angry right now. Especially since Wayland is still a few years away from being the de-facto official desktop protocol for Linux. Alpine for example just announced they are making a rootful XWayland server which will be included by default in a couple years. https://github.com/kaniini/wayback The only really dead thing about X11 right now is X11 itself, since almost nobody wants to maintain it. |
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I am also very interested in a timeline for the Wayland implementation, since Flatpak-packaged apps on Linux are penalized in terms of their safety rating on the Flathub plaform because of this, as seen here. I would be willing to help crowd-fund this development through a donation, alongside other people invested in this, assuming the required amount of money to proceed with the implementation is attainable in this way.
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Any updates on this, it seems that an xwayland upgrade just broke avalonia windows and menus on my system, and I spend all day to trakc the issue down so far. Even minimal Avalonia apps seem to be broken |
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Last I saw was an official Wayland backend was in progress. How close it is to being finished, I can't say though. https://avaloniaui.net/blog/bringing-wayland-support-to-avalonia In the mean time, I suggest filing a bug report with your distro. XWayland is not meant to break X programs. |
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soon #21448 |
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It's out now as a nuget release and I was able to use it by just referencing one new nuget package and adding |
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yes, I tested it and it's working, thanks! |
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I found that Avalonia is still using X11 on a Linux system using Wayland
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