There is no default maxheight in Israel

[zstadler]

StreetComplete enters an invalid maxheight=default for ways in Israel. There is no default height in Israel.
Moreover, any effort to remove the erroneous tags is doomed to fail, as new StreetComplete edits keep adding them.

How to Reproduce
Open the maxheight quest and enter maxheight=default for a way in Israel.
For example, https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/138343697

Expected Behavior
The default value should not be an option for maxheight in Israel.

Versions affected
All

[matkoniecz]

Are you sure that Israel has no legal size limit for vehicles driving on public roads?
Or are you claiming that it has limits on say width, it has no limit on vehicle height?

Also, in https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/881547522/history yousomeone mentions

there is always explicit sign with numbers.

in such case if user selected "there is no sign" they were wrong, but SC requires no changes.

(but I would expect this to be not true and at least some places being unsigned - maybe sign fallen off or was stolen)

EDIT: edited about identify match/mismatch

[zstadler]

Are you sure that Israel has no legal size limit for vehicles driving on public roads? Or are you claiming that it has limits on say width, it has no limit on vehicle height?

There are limitations on vehicles, depending on their size. There is also a procedure for police approval for handling oversized transportation. However, this is not a limitation on the roads.

Also, in https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/881547522/history you mention

there is always explicit sign with numbers.

This is not my changeset and not my comment, but this is correct. There should be a maxheight sign for every height obstacle on any Israeli (vehicle) road.

in such case if user selected "there is no sign" they were wrong, but SC requires no changes.
(but I would expect this to be not true and at least some places being unsigned - maybe sign fallen off or was stolen)

I think we can agree that, regardless of the locality:

• If there is a maxheight sign, and the user ignores it, then the user is indeed wrong. Am I correct to assume that SC requests a confirmation for this choice?
• On the other hand, if there is no maxheight sign, for any reason, and the user chooses a "there is no sign" in SC, then the user is not wrong.

A missing maxheight sign in Israel does not mean that "the physical height is sufficient for the country specific height limit of general traffic", as the wiki explains maxheight=default. It means that sign could have been anything, and the physical height can be of any value. Therefore, a maxheight=default tag on any road in Israel is incorrect and misleading.

If a SC user selects a "there is no sign" in Israel, then according to the wiki, SC should use the maxheight=no_sign tag, rather than maxheight=default. SC is responsible for the wording of the options presented to its users and their interpretation as specific OSM tagging to perform.

IMO, an explicit maxheight=no_sign tag could be a great way for the authorities and citizens to use SC-driven surveys to identify and fix cases of missing maxheight signs.

[matkoniecz]

This is not my changeset and not my comment

ops, sorry

A missing maxheight sign in Israel does not mean that "the physical height is sufficient for the country specific height limit of general traffic"

I agree! That is why StreetComplete then asks whether

Is there easily enough space for even the tallest trucks (at least about 4.5 meters / 15 feet) to pass through?

• Tall trucks can pass through
• Tall trucks don’t fit

(quest_maxheight_answer_noSign_question quest_maxheight_answer_noSign_question_yes quest_maxheight_answer_noSign_question_no)

If first option is taken then maxheight=default is tagged and otherwise maxheight=below_default is tagged, to distinguish between cases where there is no heigh limit applying to normal vehicles (though oversized loads may be affected) and between cases where there is limit applying to normally sized vehicles but without sign.

If a SC user selects a "there is no sign" in Israel, then according to the wiki, SC should use the maxheight=no_sign tag

But SC asks more, to be more specific.

[matkoniecz]

If there is a maxheight sign, and the user ignores it, then the user is indeed wrong. Am I correct to assume that SC requests a confirmation for this choice?

StreetComplete in such case asks for more info to be able to tag default or below_default as applicable.

Is this additional knowledge how SC works is resolving your concerns?

[zstadler]

Since the notion of a "default height" has no meaning in Israel, as explained in length above, both maxheight=default and maxheight=below_default are inapplicable. As a result, removal of the maxheight=default tags in Israel is bound to continue.

Please use the meaningful and useful maxheight=no_sign tag in Israel when a user selects "there is no sign", as I've suggested.

[matkoniecz]

Since the notion of a "default height" has no meaning in Israel

Why you think so? You mention "There is also a procedure for police approval for handling oversized transportation." so it means that there is size limit for vehicles below which they are not an oversized vehicle (this typically is the same size as typical HGV/TIR/large truck operating on roads).

Therefore, a maxheight=default tag on any road in Israel is incorrect and misleading.

Are you claiming that this tag would be wrong also on road where any non-oversized vehicle would fit vertically?

[matkoniecz]

@yrtimiD also feel free to answer that question, here or at https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/146652481

[yrtimiD]

I was about to write exactly the same words, to me the maxheight=no_sign option seems to only usable option in Israel realities.
Actually, the "default" value might fit only in very few cases where space under the bridge is enormous like here

And even here, only few kilometers ahead before entering this road there are plenty of signs:

There is another issue, I noticed that most "default" reports was in places where there are proper and clear signs. (guess people reported while driving and just didn't notice the sign). As result, this quest was hidden from other users without chance to fix.

[matkoniecz]

Is default wrong for road like https://www.google.pl/maps/@50.0870948,19.8056609,3a,60y,271.51h,88.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slouelE-fm_uZ6C4lv-LTaA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu if it would be located in Israel? If wrong - why?

Or is such situation impossible for some reason? (why?)

I noticed that most "default" reports was in places where there are proper and clear signs

In such case: please comment on changeset that people made and ask them to be more careful

[yrtimiD]

Or is such situation impossible for some reason? (why?)

From my experience - in Israel there will be a clear sign on the bridge for each lane. And even if there is declared global default - only very special people will know it (unlike max speed, for example, which is well known to every driver)

In such case: please comment on changeset that people made and ask them to be more careful

Of course, I send them all messages with explanation, but it feels like these people are not "pure" OSM editors and contribute only via SC, so they don't know what are these "default" or "below_default" means at all. I'd just prefer to avoid entering incorrect values in the first place.

[zstadler]

Since there is a requirement for maxheight signs in Israel, the lack of a sign cannot be interpreted as "the physical height is sufficient for the country specific height limit of general traffic". It should be interpreted as "there is no sign".

@matkoniecz,
I'm having a hard time understanding the purpose of this intense discussion.
Are you trying to convince the Israeli mappers that maxheight=default is better than maxheight=no_sign or no maxheight tag at all?
Is your goal to avoid a change in SC rather than increase its value in Israel?

[matkoniecz]

Do you have an Android phone? Have you seen how this question is presented there? Can you look at it in app?

the lack of a sign cannot be interpreted as "the physical height is sufficient for the country specific height limit of general traffic"

it is not interpreted this way by StreetComplete. If that is the problem, then you report nonexisting problem.

After user marks "no sign" answer, then StreetComplete additionally asks whether

Is there easily enough space for even the tallest trucks (at least about 4.5 meters / 15 feet) to pass through?

• Tall trucks can pass through
• Tall trucks don’t fit

maxheight=default is used for "there is no sign and there is enough space for even the tallest trucks (at least about 4.5 meters / 15 feet) to pass through"

maxheight=below_default is used for "there is no sign and there is not enough space for tall trucks"

It is worth distinguishing this cases.

I'm having a hard time understanding the purpose of this intense discussion.

I am trying to understand root of the reported problem so it can be fixed properly.

Are you trying to convince the Israeli mappers that maxheight=default is better than maxheight=no_sign or no maxheight tag at all?

In cases where maxheight=default is applicable, yes, I am trying to do this and it provides more info than maxheight=no_sign.

But also willing to be convinced (see for example sidewalks of cycleways discussion).

But with even higher priority, I want to understand situation, and what specifically went wrong so it can be solved.

Changing app behaviour without understanding what is being fixed is asking for trouble, in many ways.