Bikeshed thread for names "shortWall" and "longWall"

[ptomato]

The option value names shortWall and longWall struck me as odd, so I went looking for the reason why they were named this way. I found this: tc39/ecma402#119 (comment)

After reading the explanation, I do see the link with "wall time" opposed to "standard/daylight time" but I still find it a strange name. I associate "wall time" with the actual time displaying on a clock face, which to me has nothing to do with the time zone.

I don't have a suggestion that I'm happy with at the moment. The best I could come up with was shortZone and longZone, since it prints the name of the time zone itself rather than the standard or daylight time name of the time zone. But I don't find that a very intuitive name either.

I guess Stage 2 is the right time to bikeshed names! If there's no better idea than shortWall and longWall, then I don't think it's objectionable to keep it, it's just that I suspect a better name is possible.

[FrankYFTang]

The name have been discussed in ECMA402 April 8 meeting and the only one attendees have problem with is shortGMT and longGMT and that got renamed into shortOffset and longOffset. The draft of meeting note is in

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uivu6lxgEyqb-McCbicJQvitmRJOzf8Nj90Gcfdui-c/edit#heading=h.t2z1w9vgf2hm

and Shane will move to https://github.com/tc39/ecma402/tree/master/meetings by following appropriate process to be official.

Since no one raise issue with shortWall and longWall before I will put this issue for discussion for our coming May meeting.

[FrankYFTang]

The source of 'wall time' came from https://unicode.org/reports/tr35/tr35-dates.html#Time_Zone_Format_Terminology

[ljharb]

Given that Temporal explicitly decided not to go with the "wall time" term, it seems like Intl should be sticking with the terminology that Temporal selected for this, which is iirc "Plain"?

[ptomato]

Well, that's the thing - in my mind there isn't really a connection between this style of time zone name, and wall time or plain time regardless of what it's called. So I think it would be just as odd if it were called "plain".

[FrankYFTang]

So ... the status quo on the proposal is shortWall and longWall. I put this issue on the ECMA402 May 6 agenda. I do not believe it will be productive to discuss during the meeting if there are no other candidates. Are you suggesting us to change it to shortPlain, longPlain ?

I would like to see some alternative listed below before May 5 (one day before the meeting) to discuss this issue. Otherwise, I would rather we keep what is in the spec as shortWall/longWall. Is this reasonable?

Optiion			Comments	Proposed by
A	shortWall	longWall	Currently in spec text	@srl295
B	shortPlain	longPlain	Align w/ Temporal (?)	@ljharb (per Temporal?)
C	shortLocal	longLocal		@ljharb
D	shortZone	longZone	"represents the human-readable name of the time zone"	@ptomato
E	shortMetaZone	longMetaZone		@jswalden
F	shortFriendly	longFriendly		Justin Grant
G	shortFuzzy	longFuzzy		@ryzokuken
H	shortGeneric	longGeneric		@sffc
I	shortBase	longBase		Eemeli Aro
J	shortCommon	longCommon		Michael Saboff

[ljharb]

"local" is the clearest to me (and the one i preferred for Temporal too)

[ptomato]

Option D - shortZone, longZone - because it represents the human-readable name of the time zone itself? (I don't really like any of these names but I dislike "zone" the least so far)

[srl295]

ShortZone doesn't convey the difference w/ a zone-That-includes-DST-or-not.

For Wall time I think of a wall of clocks, "NEW YORK-LONDON-CHICAGO" etc.

Anyway, long/short plain makes some sense given temporals decision.

[FrankYFTang]

We spend a long time to discuss this issue in ECMA402 2021 May meeting. Each attendees list the rank of the following 5 after we agree to ruled out other options

1. MetaZone
2. Friendly
3. Generic
4. Base
5. Common

Votes:

• SFC: 1 = 3 > 4 = 5 >> 2
• USA: 3 = 5 > 4 > 2 > 1
• GPT: 3 > 1 = 4 = 5 > 2
• JSW: 3 > 2 > 1 > 4 = 5
• EAO: 4 > 3 > 2 = 5 >> 1
• DLM: 1 > 3 > 4 = 5 >> 2
• FYT: 1 > 3 = 5 > 4 >> 2
• JGT: 4 > 5 = 3 = 2 >> 1
• MLS: 5 > 3 > 4=2 > 1
• PFC: 3 > 4 > 5 >> 1 = 2

Notes:

• 1 and 2 appear to the right of a ">>" multiple times; eliminate.
• 3 appears before 4 in 8/10 rankings.
• 3 is equal to 5 in 3/10 and before 5 in 5/10 rankings.
• 3 is the most common first choice, in 5/10 rankings.
• 3 is at least the second-favourite choice in all rankings.

Conclusion

shortGeneric/longGeneric wins.

So we will got with shortGeneric and longGeneric

[sffc]

Link to full discussion: https://github.com/tc39/ecma402/blob/master/meetings/notes-2021-05-06.md#bikeshed-thread-for-names-shortwall-and-longwall-7